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Fun Legal Hypo (Borrowed Money Is Stolen) - From Talmud Law Class

Moishe’s friend Chaim asked him to do a favor and return a l...
Naomi Bat Osaka
  01/04/18
Shlomo has a claim against Chaim for the full amount owed. H...
ggtp
  01/04/18
The tidbit where Moishe declined to do what Chaim asked is w...
Tjhooker
  01/04/18
i dont know the answer yet, so i'm gonna try to answer this ...
Naomi Bat Osaka
  01/04/18
Chaim owes nothing. Moishe may owe both parties something.
Bart O'Kavanaugh
  01/04/18
why doesn't chaim owe shlomo anything?
Naomi Bat Osaka
  01/05/18
i’m still waiting for the hardware store answer.
Tjhooker
  01/04/18
will poast tonight.
Naomi Bat Osaka
  01/04/18
I’m going to buy some lumber, I need the answer.
Tjhooker
  01/05/18
You get that wood?
~~(>' ' )>
  01/12/18
...
Naomi Bat Osaka
  01/05/18
Moishe was doing his friend a favor. The debt was paid. No o...
one note antisemite
  01/05/18
Jews do favors now? Interesting.
Tjhooker
  01/05/18
"Moishe’s friend Chaim asked him to do a favor " ...
one note antisemite
  01/05/18
Sorry, forgot the hypo. No trickery within the tribe, got it...
Tjhooker
  01/05/18
...
Taylor Swift was not a hobby she was a lifestyle
  01/05/18
was moishe doing his friend a favor? or was he collecting mo...
Naomi Bat Osaka
  01/05/18
Neither would matter because he should be insured to protect...
one note antisemite
  01/05/18
this isn't a professional situation. why should be be insure...
Naomi Bat Osaka
  01/05/18
Its his responsibility to ensure such cases are covered. Had...
one note antisemite
  01/05/18
...
Naomi Bat Osaka
  01/12/18
<< "Moishe’s friend Chaim asked him to do a favor...
~~(>' ' )>
  01/12/18


Poast new message in this thread



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Date: January 4th, 2018 10:08 PM
Author: Naomi Bat Osaka (*)

Moishe’s friend Chaim asked him to do a favor and return a loan of $300 to Moishe’s brother, Shlomo. Chaim gave Moishe the money in an envelope with instructions to return it to Shlomo.

On the way, home Moishe received a text from Chaim telling him not to give the money back as Chaim needed it for some other purpose. Moishe replied by text that since he had been entrusted the money, he was not going to give it back.

As Moishe got out of his car, he was accosted by thieves who grabbed the envelope with the money and sped off on motorcycles.

Moishe told Chaim what had happened. Chaim told Moishe to tell Shlomo that he had paid the money but that it was stolen.

Discuss the parties' potential claims against one another.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35084123)



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Date: January 4th, 2018 10:18 PM
Author: ggtp (ggtp)

Shlomo has a claim against Chaim for the full amount owed. He lent the money to Chaim and Chaim is responsible for returning it. He should be strictly liable for anything that happens to any third parties he engages to repay the money, particularly without Shlomo's consent.

Chaim has a claim against Moishe, but I'm not sure its a winning one. He asked for the money to be returned, Moishe's argument that "he had been entrusted" the money doesn't seem to be a good reason to keep it. That said, it seems that Moishe would have been accosted by thieves even if he intended to return the money, so there is no harm from his intention. Doesn't seem like Moishe was negligent in handling the money, it just seems like a risk involved in giving the money to a third party to pay a debt.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35084209)



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Date: January 4th, 2018 10:25 PM
Author: Tjhooker

The tidbit where Moishe declined to do what Chaim asked is where he converted the funds. Even if it were a bailment, he can’t just do whatever he pleases with Chaims money. Shlomo sues Chaim for money had and received, Chaim files third party complaint against Moishe for conversion and breach of bailment.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35084270)



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Date: January 4th, 2018 10:46 PM
Author: Naomi Bat Osaka (*)

i dont know the answer yet, so i'm gonna try to answer this myself.

the key question in this case is agency -- is moishe an agent for his friend chaim? or is moishe an agent for his brother shlomo? or is he a dual agent?

the hypo says chaim asked moishe to do him a favor -- this suggests moishe is an agent of chaim.

is moishe an agent of his brother? it's unclear. the facts don't explicitly say anything to indicate that moishe was acting as shlomo's agent. but moishe's text that he had been "entrusted with the money" could indicate so.

it's unclear if chaim and shlomo arranged together for moishe to be a dual agent. could be the case. but we don't have enough facts.

moishe may have thought he was acting as an agent for shlomo, but there aren't enough facts suggesting that he was.

in the absence of more facts, i'm going to say that moishe was an agent of chaim.

and chaim had the authority to recall the money.

chaim owes moishe the $300 bc he didnt follow instructions and at the point he broke the agency, he owed the money. the fact that it was later stolen is irrelevant.

annd moishe still owes shlomo the loan money bc it was never paid off.

shlomo has no claim against his brother bc they had no agency.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35084431)



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Date: January 4th, 2018 10:09 PM
Author: Bart O'Kavanaugh

Chaim owes nothing. Moishe may owe both parties something.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35084137)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:21 PM
Author: Naomi Bat Osaka (*)

why doesn't chaim owe shlomo anything?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088987)



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Date: January 4th, 2018 10:11 PM
Author: Tjhooker

i’m still waiting for the hardware store answer.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35084153)



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Date: January 4th, 2018 10:47 PM
Author: Naomi Bat Osaka (*)

will poast tonight.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35084436)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:12 PM
Author: Tjhooker

I’m going to buy some lumber, I need the answer.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088912)



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Date: January 12th, 2018 11:14 PM
Author: ~~(>' ' )>

You get that wood?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35144767)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:08 PM
Author: Naomi Bat Osaka (*)



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088882)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:12 PM
Author: one note antisemite

Moishe was doing his friend a favor. The debt was paid. No one owes any money. Chaim is out 300 dollars.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088909)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:13 PM
Author: Tjhooker

Jews do favors now? Interesting.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088918)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:16 PM
Author: one note antisemite

"Moishe’s friend Chaim asked him to do a favor "

Moishe doesn't need to make Chaim whole as he was using his own resources to help one of the tribe. There was no ill intent or trickery.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088941)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:18 PM
Author: Tjhooker

Sorry, forgot the hypo. No trickery within the tribe, got it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088956)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:19 PM
Author: Taylor Swift was not a hobby she was a lifestyle



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088972)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:19 PM
Author: Naomi Bat Osaka (*)

was moishe doing his friend a favor? or was he collecting money for his brother?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088976)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:21 PM
Author: one note antisemite

Neither would matter because he should be insured to protect against such cases anyways.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088986)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:22 PM
Author: Naomi Bat Osaka (*)

this isn't a professional situation. why should be be insured to protect against a $300 theft?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088993)



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Date: January 5th, 2018 3:23 PM
Author: one note antisemite

Its his responsibility to ensure such cases are covered. Had he collected the money himself he would have been mugged too

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35088999)



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Date: January 12th, 2018 1:12 PM
Author: Naomi Bat Osaka (*)



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35140515)



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Date: January 12th, 2018 1:42 PM
Author: ~~(>' ' )>

<< "Moishe’s friend Chaim asked him to do a favor and return a loan of $300 to Moishe’s brother, Shlomo. Chaim gave Moishe the money in an envelope with instructions to return it to Shlomo." >>

This is a classic gratuitous bailment scenario. There's nothing in it for Moishe, who is doing it as a favor, and all of the benefit is for Chaim.

Under old school common law, Moishe would be strictly liable for caring for the money. That, of course, is a god damn retarded rule that isn't very popular now.

Most U.S. jurisdictions would now say that all bailees have a duty to act reasonably (regardless of whether its a gratuitous bailment or another type) or that gratuitous bailees have a duty to not act with gross negligence.

<< "On the way, home Moishe received a text from Chaim telling him not to give the money back as Chaim needed it for some other purpose." >>

Chaim is entitled to direct the disposition of his property.

<< "Moishe replied by text that since he had been entrusted the money, he was not going to give it back." >>

Moishe is a retard. His right to possess the money is controlled by Chaim.

Chaim has a conversion claim against Moishe at this point.

<< "As Moishe got out of his car, he was accosted by thieves who grabbed the envelope with the money and sped off on motorcycles." >>

We lack facks sufficient to know whether Moishe was negligent or grossly negligent.

<< "Chaim told Moishe to tell Shlomo that he had paid the money but that it was stolen." >>

Chaim is an idiot, too. Chaim had a duty to repay the loan. He didn't.

Conclusion:

Chaim owes Shlomo. Shlomo can sue Chaim if there is a default. (But we don't know whether there is a default. For instance, Chaim could have been paying early.)

If the old bailment rule applies, Moishe is strictly liable to Moishe and must pay him. In that case, Moishe would have a subrogated claim for conversion against the robbers (and maybe other tort claims).

If one of the newer rules applies, the outcome is unclear. We don't know whether Moishe was negligent or grossly negligent.

If Moishe is liable to Chaim because he was negligent or grossly negligent, Moishe would still have a subrogated claim for conversion against the robbers (and maybe other tort claims).

If Moishe was not negligent or grossly negligent, Chaim would have a claim for conversion against the robbers.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3849805&forum_id=2#35140780)